Thursday, April 21, 2011
The Difficult IV
Unfortunately patients judge our anesthesia skills based on our ability to start an IV. While this is patently unfair, there is little they know about anesthesiologists to make an assessment of our competency. No other physicians are judged in such a trite manner. A patient has no idea how knowledgeable his internist is. The internist may secretly get all his information from UpToDate and the patient wouldn't have a clue. They'll still brag to all their friends about how great their doctor's bedside manner is. A surgeon may royally screw up an operation but the patient is asleep when it happens. When he awakens, all he knows is that the operation is finished. But an anesthesiologist is unable to hide. His skill at putting in an IV is the first time the patient has had a chance to assess the anesthesiologist, usually about five minutes after first meeting. Multiple attempts at placing an IV instantly brands the anesthesiologist as incompetent.
The patient who presents with difficult veins usually knows it. They may even tell you where their best vein is for inserting a catheter. One anesthesia pearl is to always listen to your patient when they tell you where to place an IV. They are usually right and will save you from fruitlessly stabbing the patient in all the wrong places before you eventually go back to the vein they directed you to in the first place. What's worse though are the patients who claim they've never had a problem with an IV before and why is it I can't get one in today. Statements like that really are not helpful or conducive to placing a successful intravenous.
People seem to have a mistaken belief that anesthesiologists have the best skills in putting in IV's. I can't help but groan when the preop nurse can't get an IV then cheerfully tells the patient the anesthesiologist will do it easily. While I may be the best physician at this task, I am definitely not the most skillful hospital personnel at it. Truth be told, the hospital's IV nurse can place IV's in a patient where I didn't even suspect a vein existed. I may put 3 or 4 IV's a day at most. An IV nurse will put in dozens. Also if you can wrangle one, a pediatric nurse is also excellent at putting in IV's. They're just used to working with tiny veins.
So what should one do when confronted with virtually no veins? First of all, try not to have a crowd around the patient's bed. Having a plethora of family members observing you fumble multiple attempts at inserting an intravenous can be really humiliating. Next remember that your first shot is your best shot. You may see one solitary vein on the entire patient and think you can get an 18 GA catheter in there. But that would be a mistake. While it may happen, many times that is the same vein everybody else has attempted and it will still be difficult. Always use a smaller catheter than you think the vein will accept. You can always start another IV after the patient is asleep and the veins are engorged from venodilation due to the anesthesia. Give yourself a set number of attempts at this endeavor. It does not help you or the patient to have four puncture marks on one arm and five on the other arm and still have no IV's to show for all your efforts. I let myself try three times. Then it's time to give yourself and the patient a break from this torture.
What should you do next? Frequently the patient is cold because of the ambient room temperature. Wrap the arms in warm blankets for five to ten minutes. This will diltate the veins sufficiently that you may see a vein that you didn't notice before. Think about having a colleague attempt an IV placement for you. Sometimes it just takes a fresh pair of eyes and hands to put in an IV. If that doesn't work, the IV nurse may need to be called. By now, you've probably delayed your case so a few more minutes waiting for the nurse is not going to make much difference. If all else fails, you may have to fall back to the choice of last resort, the dreaded central line.
There is no getting around a challenging IV in the course of an anesthesiologist's day. But having an algorithm and a course of action will help reduce the anxiety. Having a sense of humor may decrease the tension you experience with your patient. And try to remember that your ability to insert an IV says nothing about you as an anesthesiologist. So what if the patient thinks you're an incompetent boob. All that matters is the patient survives the surgery with no anesthetic complications. That's the marks of a good anesthesiologist, not if you can insert a 24 GA IV into a vein in his pinky.
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I'm currently in nursing school and when i get patients that have the worst veins they get so mad at me and want someone else to work on them but using a smaller catheter does work even with people that have incontinence and you have to use a catheter on them.ReplyDelete
Ashlee....I seriously hope for the safety of all the patients out there that you are not a nurse. The fact that you have confused two entirely different catheters is amazing. Also, please learn how to write and not sound so retarded. You should not be allowed near any patients, and if you are, I feel bad for them.Delete
It is a sad reflection on today's nursing education program but most nurses who started training within the last 5 years do not know that catheter means any tube inserted into any body cavity, vessel, or duct. If you say "hand me the Foley" most will freeze like dear in your headlights and what is even worse is that the majority cannot start an IV cath to save their own lives.Delete
Excuse me, herd of anonymouses: She's a nursing student, just getting started. Instead of eating your young, try teaching her. After all, you'd like some new nurses on your unit to cover overtime, right? Right.Delete
Anonymous, it is nurses like you that are an obstacle to new nurses trying to learn skills, you should be ashamed at yourself. So arrogant.Delete
Anonymous, it's nurses like you who give our profession a bad names. Not nurses who are learning. I'm sure you guys were the almighty experts when you were new grads. Probably the know it all's, too, when you really didn't know anything. Fake it til you make it then look down on those new people so you can best your chest and feel powerful and so much better. You have an inferiority/ego complex. Maybe you should have studied psych a little longer.Delete
I am one of those patients that have the most impossible veins to find. They always collapse, roll around and generally cause all sorts of problems. I get a procedure done every M-W-F and it's going to last for a month or two, so I end up with at least 3 IV pokes every visit. Today, I had SEVEN before someone was able to get it started. I have no idea why this is, but I don't ever get upset with the nurse, I feel bad for him or her because I know it is upsetting for them too. The only thing I would mention is, if you have a patient who tells you that you need to use a pediatric catheter, LISTEN TO THEM! Every single time I tell a nurse this and they sort of blow me off, until they've poked me 3-4 times and blown every vein THEN they try it my way and it works like a charm. Patient's know stuff too :)ReplyDelete
I totally agree. I just had this happen this week. Told the Nurse that I have bad veins,please use a pediatric catheter, it is what works I even told her which arm and which veins to use, but she didn't listen. Tried the opposite arm. Then over to the other. Called a radiologist??? To try it. The radiologist tried still with a 20 gauge again and finally listened to me in the hand. But without the small pediatric catheter it was so painful. Omg!Delete
If you're going to need IV's so frequently, have you discussed with your doctor the possibility of getting a PICC line? A well maintained PICC line will last for months and you won't need to get poked for IV's with each hospital visit. Plus you can draw blood from it too for lab work.ReplyDelete
Why not use an IO prior to going to a central catheter?ReplyDelete
An IO is traumatic and damaging; plus, it provides a very distal access site, whereas the central line will provide proximal medication and fluid administration. The IO is certainly an option, but if the time and resources permit, a central line is better.Delete
I'd assume that drug distribution / kinetics / speed of onset are more reliable and predictable with central catheters in contrast to IOs. Besides, IOs are supposed to hurt like heck.ReplyDelete
My route = hands -> AC -> feet -> EJ -> central line.
EMS can't put in a central line, so my sequence is forearm (freedom of movement :D), hand, AC. If the patient can get away with no IV, then it stops there. If not, then feet, IO, then EJ. Haven't had to go that far yet.Delete
Except in an arrest; service policy is to place an IO immediately.
Our systems is allowed to place specific central lines if it is required. We prefer to place an IO first, but your broad stroke is not true of all EMS systems.Delete
I am impatient so don't know all of the letters but I can tell you a hundred times out of a hundred I would rather have the one in my neck then even an attempt at my foot because the foot was so intensely painful and with cyclic vomiting I go into the ER for fluids frequently and regularly and I also happened to be in the group of 20% of people is it don't drink and already had their gallbladder out so it's not gallstones causing my pancreatitis. Bottom line I get traded to some form of catheter to get fluids because my potassium level be deadly dangerously well or my cardiac calcium or I won't have urinated in literally 48 hours and I won't need to use the restroom either and if I have a nurse that listens to all of my previous IV experience they typically get it in one to three tries but when they feel like they know me better than I know me because I've only been there 100% of the times I've been stuck and they've only been there the one time and those nurses are the ones that hurt me very intensely and in the neck it doesn't hurt at all and I never get the numb cream or shot - for me personally that always makes the line blow and I also just don't understand getting poked a couple of times for them to put in an IV when whether they put it in my hand AC or somewhere else on my arm the pain isn't much different then the numb shot.Delete
I've been having a very serious issue with getting an Iv done this week. first, tuesday, they tried four times for two hours. i let my arm hang.. try again.. doesn't work, im wrapped up in a blanket as well, but i still get cold very easily. I'm only 108 pounds and 5' 1". So today they has me come back, i took a hot shower, drank water all day yesterday till 11 50 last night, 6 hours before surgery.. still again, today, they were unsuccessful after again, 2 hours of trying. What can i do !? please help me! im so upset, and don't want to do the prosedure awake, they can't even find veins in my feet, like children have. please help me, i need advice!ReplyDelete
Have the staff call the IV team nurses who have an ultrasound machine. They are an amazing help when confronted with difficult veins. I'm a nurse who doesn't hesitate to call them when needed.Delete
Call a Paramedic in who is used to dropping lines in the back of a bouncing ambulance....Delete
Anonymous, I have a few suggestions. You may have to ask the anesthesiologist to put in a central line, either in the neck or the groin, to get IV access. This may not always be feasible if you're in an ambulatory surgery center or you're having a minor procedure that lasts fifteen minutes.ReplyDelete
If you know you'll be having multiple procedures done, you may ask your doctor to order a PICC line. That way you'll always have an IV whenever you go to the hospital.
Lastly you may ask the anesthesiologist to put you to sleep first using mask induction. Once you're asleep under anesthesia your veins usually get bigger, making it easier to put in an IV or at least you won't feel it. This will depend on your anesthesiologist's comfort level in putting you to sleep without IV access.
Good luck with your procedures.
Dear Difficult IV Anon:ReplyDelete
Sometimes the anesthesia provider can give you nitrous oxide (laughing gas) to ease your anxiety and sometimes it will usually make your veins bigger as well.
If you know where your veins are hiding, ask them to put on a numbing cream to your skin before the iv start.
Ultrasound is becoming a great tool to start difficult IVs. Ask if they can use it.
If you are having multiple procedures, a PICC may be your best bet.
I recently had an appointment scheduled to have a table tilt test performed and after seven attempts to start an IV had failed. My cardiologist canceled he examined my arms and feet then he ask if this happens all the time and, I told him yes he, said it is canceled and to keep my appointment with his office. every time I need an IV the nurses and anesthesiologist have a difficult time with this. is there something wrong with my veins that would cause this?ReplyDelete
There is nothing inherently "wrong" with you veins. Your veins are your veins. There could be multiple reasons why your veins are more difficult to cannulate. Have you had multiple hospitalizations? If you are a small person or an obese person, your veins will be harder to find. Perhaps the room is cold. Maybe you were dehydrated because of NPO requirements before going to the hospital. Unfortunately some people will always experience difficulties in getting an IV started.Delete
I am a difficult "stick"- my all time record for attempts to start an IV was 19. It was an emergency situation in a rather small community hospital, the ER staff called an anesthesiologist out of surgery and he was able to start one in my foot. Hooray for him! I currently have a PICC for daily infusion of an antibiotic for a wound infection. Hope I can keep it for the pending debriding surgery on the wound. ID doc doesn't want to leave it in any longer than the 3 weeks of antibiotics. I try my best to put whomever is trying to get a vein at ease - say something like 'I'm a tough stick, so don't beat yourself up if you have trouble, I'm a very patient patient!" It seems to help everybody.ReplyDelete
Thank you for your positive attitude. The demeanor of the patient can make a difficult IV cannulation tolerable or hell raising. I've had patients who told me I get only one chance at getting the IV in. With patients like that it makes the situation go from bad to worse.Delete
I just went tohospital for a ct. Had 3 different nurses fail to find a vein. Even used this light that shined thru my skin so they could see the veins. Still no luck. Was poked 12 times, and had 3 veins to blow. Still no luck. Thankfully they were able to do and read the ct with out any dye. But makes me wonder if I should be worried..... but I surely didn't blame the nurses. They were very sympathetic and professional.ReplyDelete
First of all, THANK GOD I stumbled upon this. Add me to the "bad stick" club.ReplyDelete
Second, I do everything I possibly can prior to my procedure day. I drink tons of WARM water for three days prior. Never cold. I try to keep as warm as possible.
Third, I always tell my caregivers that I'm a bad stick even before we get to the pre-op room. Sometimes I get a nurse that will nod and laugh a bit and say, "oh don't worry, I'm a pro... I'll get it." While I love that kind of attitude, it also bothers me because I feel like I'm not being taken seriously. I have to reiterate. "No, you don't understand. I have no veins." Then I'm taken seriously. Which brings me to number three..
3. Very rarely do I get a person that isn't willing to listen to me.That being said, I never get angry at my caregiver that is trying hard to get my cath in. I know it's not easy for me, so it's not easy for them. Even the anesthesiologists that numb me, and try; they seem embarrassed and I don't want that. I tell them to please don't let it upset them. I would never let that alter how I feel about them as an anesthetist. I'm a bad stick. I'm not an easy patient. It's not my fault, but it isn't theirs, either. I wipe my tears with the tissue they hand me (yes, it hurts), and try to come up with another plan. One hospital I was in had a vein finder... and thank GOD. First poke and they were in. The next hospital did not. I was poked NINE times and finally got one in my upper arm. I mentioned the machine and they told me that a rep had come by a month prior and did a demo. Costs 5k. After my 9th poke, I told them the machine would pay for itself in a week. I wrote a letter to the hospital CEO. I'm due for a colonoscopy and I see my doc on Thursday of this week. I'm going to tell him this story when I go in. The hospital he has privileges in does not have the vein finder. Seems silly to get a PICC for a colonoscopy. This will be my 5th PICC. The last one took 3 docs to place. I wonder if I could just get a port put in and leave it there? Anyway, thanks for writing this. Oh, and to everyone reading... ask your nurse or anesthetist to try using a manual BP cuff instead of a tourniquet. It does help.
There is also a red LED flash light (for hunting) used by pediatric nurses, which works for about $8.99 on Amazon. I hate to poke my patients more than twice, so I finally ordered one even though I've heard about it years ago. I have been in nursing for about 10 years in the ICU. We never start IVs except for when we de-line central lines. That's no excuse for not being proficient at this life-saving skill. I am proficient, but not an expert at it. I have noticed though that the good nurses are more experienced generally and they are confident. Even I need need to keep up this skill having been around this long in nursing. I feel anything I can do to help the patient get it in the first time is worth it, even if it improves the chances by a slight margin!Delete
I definitely appreciate your positive attitude. As said previously, it is the hardest when patients state they hate IVs (everyone does) and puts you on the spot to get it in the first time.
Ok guys you don't need all this stuff. I'm a nurse who has worked ER and GI, I have yet to puncture a patient more then twice. I'm usually no more than one stick, no matter how bad the veins are. 1. Learn where your veins lie. 2. Know how to start an IV. Never get upset if you miss. 3. Reassess. 4. Make sure turnaquit is tight... But what irritates me about other nurses... I was always called to do others IV's. By those whom were nurses for years, and the reason why was bc they were lazy. Never let the IV win. As for being afraid of them... learn the technique. You may have new nurses out there or nursing students, but there is one thing they need to remember. When you go to a floor and you're there to learn IV's, don't sit over in a chair or on a stool and talk with your class mate. Ask questions and learn what works, bc you will see that type of patient prob a thousand times. But nothing makes me more mad then to have a student come to the floor to learn IV's and they talk to there friend all day long. I have no tolerance for this. They're a waste of my time and the hospitals. If they wan't to learn, I'll show them all the tricks that work. Because what they show them in school is not at all how you start an IV. They usually show them how to blow a vein, but the kids I have taught have come back and thank me. I will bend over backwards if you're willing to learn, but if you want to gab I have no time for you. I work in fast paced areas and have no time to play games. As for someone to stick a patient 6 to 7 times is crazy. If a patient has been stuck like this, they usually are going to tell you their last experience. As a nurse you should listen. But most nurses get mad when a patient says something, although, I want to know why they were stuck like that. ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR PATIENT. If they tell you that's not what their pill looks like, you STOP back away and check that med out. Once they take it, it's gone. NEVER NEVER BLOW A PATIENT OFF! LISTEN TO THEM! I HOPE ALL THE NEW NURSES AND STUDENTS THE BEST OF LUCK, BUT REMEMBER... LEARN FROM EACH NURSE, TAKE THE GOOD PARTS YOU LEARN FROM EACH NURSE AND PATIENT, AND MAKE THEM YOUR OWN. GOD BLESS ALL THE NURSES.ReplyDelete
I had my first IV placed two weeks ago. I now know that I am a difficult stick. Due to my advanced age the Nurses didn't believe that I had never had an IV before. The hand sticks were unsuccessful after three tries. (both hands used). Then I had to live through a thumb stick - that hurt like crazy - a lit match to my skin. That also was a failure and blew up under the skin. I was desperate for the stick to work so I asked about a blue shadow at the upper part of my forearm. The Anesthesiologist said she could see it but was concerned because it was "deep". I told her to go for it - she did and was successful. That stick didn't hurt at all compared to the hands or thumb. I was also told my hand veins are hidden and flat. I have another surgery coming up soon and have drawn an ink circle around the one successful site of the IV stick. I have to stop all fluids and food by midnight of course so I am concerned that even with all that I will drink up to that time I will still be dehydrated and the IV stick will be a problem again. I will let them know ahead of time about the warm blankets. I hope they have one of those vein locators.ReplyDelete
Having an IV in your foot hurts so much! I would ask for them to put it in my neck as I've had that done before and it didn't even pinch the only thing that was a little unnerving is the video put your feet above your head and I have really good hearing so as they filled up the tubes for the blood work I could hear it! But it beats being poked 17-25 times in a single visit or even just one stick in the foot in my opinion because your foot is all bones and nerves so although I can hold completely still for a regular IV or the one in my neck but I believe they call an IJ, because the needle was hitting my nerves in my foot I could not keep it still and it hurt intensely!Delete